And the lines have been drawn

[suspectclass]

Z--: very cool, seems like you are serious about
this one
Ry: yea.
Ry: very.
Z--: so she gets all your gender shit?
Ry: my gender shit has changed somewhat, but
yes
Z--: changed in what way?
Ry: she was dating a transguy before me,
anyway
Ry: ::shrug;: I don't really see myself as a
boi
Z--: what do you see yourself as?
Ry: a dyke.
Ry: I've been rethinking butch a
lot...y'know?
Ry: like...butch=/=Leslie Feinberg
Z--: or is that because its easier and your new
interest is a dyke
Z--: Les is hardly a standard butch
Ry: I've been thinking about it for awhile
Ry: ::shrug:: it's not something I've shared
with a lot of people
Z--: its something I think about when trans gets
too difficult
Z--: and if I'm interested in a dyke
Ry: well...boi doesn't make a lot of sense to
me...and I'm tired of trying to shove myself into
something
Ry: if you remember...I told you some of this
when I visited last
Ry: about wanting to be butch, not a guy
Z--: wanting and being are two different things
Z--: but we all get to make the choice
Z--: ultimately
Z--: it's a fine line
Z--: and I do think it comes down to choice
Ry: I'm closer than I thought I was
Ry: yeah...plus...I think I can think of
myself as butch in some ways without having to shove
myself in in other ways
Z--: I can't see myself as butch at all
Ry: yeah
Z--: mainly because I'm not into femmes
Ry: yeah...
Ry: well....
Z--: and I think butch assumes that
Z--: I find butch and femme too heterosexual
Ry: I find that comment to be very second
wave feminist and essentialist.
Z--: well I find FTMs who date women to be
heterosexual also
Z--: although they don't like to say that
Ry: yeah,
Z--: butch is more variable
Z--: but it is based in polarity
Ry: screw self-identification. Let's just
slap a label on em
Ry: polarity doesn't mean straight
Ry: what about butch and boi?
Z--: heterosexuality is based on opposite
attraction and polarity
Ry: that's polarity
Z--: no not really
Ry: different polarity
Z--: its same gender expression
Ry: it's still polarity in the sense of age
and power
Z--: identification is somewhat different... but
its similar
Z--: not necessarily
Z--: boi and butch say nothing about age
Z--: or power

[i'm cutting this part out...ranting about FTMs]

Ry: alright, well, going back to whether or
not *I've* suddenly gone hetero on you
Ry: I never claimed that I was gonna be a boi
forever
Z--: well you have become a woman and a dyke
Ry: and people change, Z---.
Z--: which is not a community I belong to
Z--: or have any experience in
Ry: right so clearly everything that we have
had in common has to go down the tubes?
Ry: I don't mirror your expression so I don't
make sense?
Ry: sense
Z--: dude we met on our gender expression and
similar issues
Z--: we have bonded on being fags together
Ry: I'm sorry I thought that we had gotten
beyond just that.
Ry: pardon me.
Z--: and this is the first time I've heard this
from you
Z--: gender queer yes
Z--: but dyke?
Z--: butch?
Ry: if I don't want to say it, it's because I
was afraid of this. exactly this.
Ry: and usually when I im you, you can't talk
Ry: alright. well, you were really there for
me at a time I really needed it. and I appreciate
that.
Z--: I just see so many people... running from
being in the middle.. because its hard... either
changing their mind and saying they aren't trans
really, or injecting T to be a man and pass as soon as
possible
Z--: and I remain in the middle
Ry: since when is butch dyke so fucking woman
identified?
Z--: hello?
Z--: what else would you call it?
Ry: I said I id'd as a dyke, at what point
did I say I thought of myself as a woman
Ry: I'm still an other
Ry: I still don't fit
Ry: I don't *look* any different
Z--: um... dykes are women who love women
Z--: it's the definition
Ry: Z---, I never id'd as a woman when queer
Ry: no that's a lesbian
Z--: dyke is a political lesbian
Z--: its still woman IDed
Ry: my id as a female came from being a dyke
who loved dykes
Z--: dykes are woman ID
Z--: by definition
Ry: I don't know any butch dykes who are
fully comfortable with being woman id'd
Ry: hell, I know a lot of femmes who aren't,
too
Z--: yeah because they are trans
Ry: that's as bad as saying that trans men
are butches on T
Z--: every butch I've ever met who wasn't "woman
ID" just a "dyke" is now a man on T
Z--: many transmen were butches
Ry: be that as it may, how does it give you
the right to say that's what all butches are, or that
that is never a valid id?
Ry: yeah, and some go back.
Z--: they try to
Z--: I know some
Z--: I'm not saying all butches are transmen
Z--: I'm saying if you protest too much about not
being comfortable being female and a woman...
Z--: means there are gender issues
Z--: and one can choose to do something or not


I'll edit it later, for a better version look at Eve's entry.

Comments

and then the genderfuck advocates attacked

[erin-bo-berin.livejournal.com]

that is infuriating. you can ID as whateverthehell you want, and you will be the same, turbo rad, super duper, skunkupine-loving Ry.

you rawk, and I'm sorry people can be dickweeds sometimes.

Re: and then the genderfuck advocates attacked

[masscooper.livejournal.com]

Hands you a skunkupine and a queerly gendered gold star :-)

And a hug ::hug::

And a lovely sexy diesel server-type.

Ry

[artartart.livejournal.com]

What an asshole.

Don't waste your time with people who are more interested in what you call yourself than who you are.

You are a fucking cool person.

If I deconstruct my gender without an audience, am I still radical?

[masscooper.livejournal.com]

::hands you a label-maker that only prints things like "skunkupine aficianado":: And misspells everything...clearly.

Punk rawk lives in yer hart, but apparently your worth as a human being lives in your label.

Good googly moogly am I turning into a post-modernist? Augh!

Ry

Re: If I deconstruct my gender without an audience, am I still radical?

[artartart.livejournal.com]

Post-modernism is a short man's existentialism.

And hey, when did you turn 20?

Re: If I deconstruct my gender without an audience, am I still radical?

[masscooper.livejournal.com]

Lol. In January. It's a line from a Melissa Ferrick song. I got sick of actual names and Irrational Optimism Campaign was taken ;-p

By the way, did that come out of your own little noggin, or is it a reference?

Ry

Re: If I deconstruct my gender without an audience, am I still radical?

[artartart.livejournal.com]

My noggin.

You are NOT 20.

Re: If I deconstruct my gender without an audience, am I still radical?

[masscooper.livejournal.com]

No. Not yet. Soon. :-)

Ry

Butch and trans may intersect, but dyke aint the same as a lessspian in my head, that's for sure.

[torreycanyon.livejournal.com]

Uggle. Mumble. Not very coherent tonight, but a butch backslap for you, Ry, don't let the assumptions of others colour the way you define your identity. I don't know your culture, your community, and it seems trans issues are both more political and more visible over there.

[reme.livejournal.com]

i have no idea who you were talking to, but i was really taken aback by their prescriptive views about what being butch/being a dyke means. You can totally ID as butch and go for other butches, and I think dyke is a very open term, genderwise. But who cares what I think? It's what YOU think that's important. Don't let the man (trans or otherwise) get you down. ;) hee hee.

[freakysparks.livejournal.com]

This sounds like arguing with a brick wall. Someone who doesn't believe identity can change over time, and is in fact willfully ignorant of that possibility, and who ranks different identities...no wonder you are furious.
I agree so strongly that you have every right to determine your own identity - and to expect others to respect it!!!

Re:

[masscooper.livejournal.com]

Huzzah!

Great, thanks guys.

Ry

[chimneychild.livejournal.com]

bullshit, i say. stick with your heart. have fun with cd.

"you can choose any colour so long as it's blue"

[brucebanner.livejournal.com]

FIT THIS BOX!!!

Arg! that's gross. I like your non-woman ID'ed butchness. However, even if you had some sort of other label ("machine wash, line dry") I'd *still* call you my lucky slutty duck!

tell Z-- to take hir "by definition" self and either re-educate hirself or shut the fuck up. Tell hir that Joe says that assuming shit and making up shit when you clearly dont know what you're talking about is called IGNORANCE (by definition!)

love & eating babies,
Joe

Re: "you can choose any colour so long as it's blue"

[izzybelly.livejournal.com]

heehee
you rock! (whoever you are) just that your comment kicks ass. i love it when people are both funny and articulate.

Re: "you can choose any colour so long as it's blue"

[brucebanner.livejournal.com]

thanks. I feel all special. I'm joe. I'm teh guy that dates artartart behind her back adn also ry is my lucky slutty duck. :)

that's was such a nice thing to do.
Thank you,
Joe

[izzybelly.livejournal.com]

i just have a general quesion for you and whoever else. since when is it bad to be hetero or parallel to heteros? i mean, from my perspective this is about self identification first. the politics come in afterwords when you're trying to get equal treatment under the law. i just don't understand the idea of saying in a derogatory tone that something is heterosexual. doesn't it bother anyone else when people do this?

Re:

[masscooper.livejournal.com]

Yeah...but it also bothers me to be called straight, because I went through a lot to figure out that I wasn't. So..it cuts both ways. ::Sigh::

Ry