And the lines have been drawn

[suspectclass]

Z--: very cool, seems like you are serious about
this one
Ry: yea.
Ry: very.
Z--: so she gets all your gender shit?
Ry: my gender shit has changed somewhat, but
yes
Z--: changed in what way?
Ry: she was dating a transguy before me,
anyway
Ry: ::shrug;: I don't really see myself as a
boi
Z--: what do you see yourself as?
Ry: a dyke.
Ry: I've been rethinking butch a
lot...y'know?
Ry: like...butch=/=Leslie Feinberg
Z--: or is that because its easier and your new
interest is a dyke
Z--: Les is hardly a standard butch
Ry: I've been thinking about it for awhile
Ry: ::shrug:: it's not something I've shared
with a lot of people
Z--: its something I think about when trans gets
too difficult
Z--: and if I'm interested in a dyke
Ry: well...boi doesn't make a lot of sense to
me...and I'm tired of trying to shove myself into
something
Ry: if you remember...I told you some of this
when I visited last
Ry: about wanting to be butch, not a guy
Z--: wanting and being are two different things
Z--: but we all get to make the choice
Z--: ultimately
Z--: it's a fine line
Z--: and I do think it comes down to choice
Ry: I'm closer than I thought I was
Ry: yeah...plus...I think I can think of
myself as butch in some ways without having to shove
myself in in other ways
Z--: I can't see myself as butch at all
Ry: yeah
Z--: mainly because I'm not into femmes
Ry: yeah...
Ry: well....
Z--: and I think butch assumes that
Z--: I find butch and femme too heterosexual
Ry: I find that comment to be very second
wave feminist and essentialist.
Z--: well I find FTMs who date women to be
heterosexual also
Z--: although they don't like to say that
Ry: yeah,
Z--: butch is more variable
Z--: but it is based in polarity
Ry: screw self-identification. Let's just
slap a label on em
Ry: polarity doesn't mean straight
Ry: what about butch and boi?
Z--: heterosexuality is based on opposite
attraction and polarity
Ry: that's polarity
Z--: no not really
Ry: different polarity
Z--: its same gender expression
Ry: it's still polarity in the sense of age
and power
Z--: identification is somewhat different... but
its similar
Z--: not necessarily
Z--: boi and butch say nothing about age
Z--: or power

[i'm cutting this part out...ranting about FTMs]

Ry: alright, well, going back to whether or
not *I've* suddenly gone hetero on you
Ry: I never claimed that I was gonna be a boi
forever
Z--: well you have become a woman and a dyke
Ry: and people change, Z---.
Z--: which is not a community I belong to
Z--: or have any experience in
Ry: right so clearly everything that we have
had in common has to go down the tubes?
Ry: I don't mirror your expression so I don't
make sense?
Ry: sense
Z--: dude we met on our gender expression and
similar issues
Z--: we have bonded on being fags together
Ry: I'm sorry I thought that we had gotten
beyond just that.
Ry: pardon me.
Z--: and this is the first time I've heard this
from you
Z--: gender queer yes
Z--: but dyke?
Z--: butch?
Ry: if I don't want to say it, it's because I
was afraid of this. exactly this.
Ry: and usually when I im you, you can't talk
Ry: alright. well, you were really there for
me at a time I really needed it. and I appreciate
that.
Z--: I just see so many people... running from
being in the middle.. because its hard... either
changing their mind and saying they aren't trans
really, or injecting T to be a man and pass as soon as
possible
Z--: and I remain in the middle
Ry: since when is butch dyke so fucking woman
identified?
Z--: hello?
Z--: what else would you call it?
Ry: I said I id'd as a dyke, at what point
did I say I thought of myself as a woman
Ry: I'm still an other
Ry: I still don't fit
Ry: I don't *look* any different
Z--: um... dykes are women who love women
Z--: it's the definition
Ry: Z---, I never id'd as a woman when queer
Ry: no that's a lesbian
Z--: dyke is a political lesbian
Z--: its still woman IDed
Ry: my id as a female came from being a dyke
who loved dykes
Z--: dykes are woman ID
Z--: by definition
Ry: I don't know any butch dykes who are
fully comfortable with being woman id'd
Ry: hell, I know a lot of femmes who aren't,
too
Z--: yeah because they are trans
Ry: that's as bad as saying that trans men
are butches on T
Z--: every butch I've ever met who wasn't "woman
ID" just a "dyke" is now a man on T
Z--: many transmen were butches
Ry: be that as it may, how does it give you
the right to say that's what all butches are, or that
that is never a valid id?
Ry: yeah, and some go back.
Z--: they try to
Z--: I know some
Z--: I'm not saying all butches are transmen
Z--: I'm saying if you protest too much about not
being comfortable being female and a woman...
Z--: means there are gender issues
Z--: and one can choose to do something or not


I'll edit it later, for a better version look at Eve's entry.

Comments

Re:

[masscooper.livejournal.com]

Huzzah!

Great, thanks guys.

Ry